S3E15: Learning How To Code with Code Crew Co-founder Jamal O’Garro

This episode was transcribed with the help of an AI transcription tool. Please forgive any typos.

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Laurence Bradford 0:52
Hey, listeners! Welcome to the Learn to Code With Me podcast. I'm your host Laurence Bradford. In today's episode, I talk with Jamal O'Garro. Jamal is the co-founder of Code Crew, a platform that offers affordable classes, workshops and meetups. He's also a self-taught software engineer. Before starting Code Crew, Jamal lost his job in finance and was unemployed for a year, he saw that there were a lot of opportunities in tech and decide to learn how to code. And our conversation, we talked about how you can teach yourself to code, the benefits of networking and much more. If you want to find some of the best resources for teaching yourself to code and learn how to build a network of peers. This episode is for you. Remember, you can get show notes for this interview plus much more information about Jamal at learntocodewith.me/podcast. Enjoy.

Laurence Bradford 1:46
Hey, Jamal, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Jamal O'Garra 1:48
Hey, thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Laurence Bradford 1:50
Yeah, I'm so excited to have you on because you're such a busy guy. You're doing so much stuff in the code community. But really quick, could you introduce yourself to the audience.?

Jamal O'Garra 1:58
Yeah, sure. So I guess most folks may know from the description. My name is Jamal O'Garro. I'm a software developer based out of New York City. I am a self taught developer focusing mostly on JavaScript in front end technologies, but also uncomfortable across the entire stack. I also code in Python, Node J.S and a little bit of iOS development.

Laurence Bradford 2:18
Nice. Yeah, you definitely do a lot. So before you taught yourself how to code, what were you doing?

Jamal O'Garra 2:24
Yeah, I was working in corporate America. So I was actually working in finance, in fixed income, mostly on the analytic side, the debt for a couple years and moving to sales, and then eventually found myself on the, I guess, the wrong side of the financial crisis. I was one of the many, many people who were let go during that time. So I was unemployed for probably a good year. Going into a year before I actually started to like learn how to code and learn how to program because my main motivation was to get a job. It was actually myself and my wife phone Who runs cocoa with me? We're, you know, both working in finance both got laid off, you know, during the economic downturn and, you know, so that there were many, many, many opportunities to, you know, gain employment by learning how to code learning how to program. So we both sat down and took a couple of months and taught ourselves the basics to get into the workforce.

Laurence Bradford 3:23
Yeah, that's I feel like there's a lot of people who turned to coding or technology when they kind of ran options, at least that was certainly that was certainly my case. When I realized the career I thought I wanted, didn't have the opportunity I thought it had. But when you like, if you were called to how did you first even like find out about coding or realize that it could be an option for you and that you could like switch into tech?

Jamal O'Garra 3:47
Yeah, I think I had read an article I think in the times or some publication. I was like, I like to read in general. So I was reading going through with my Flipboard and article came up about like, there's a shortage Software Engineering and web development jobs and that it was sort of point that, you know, employers would hire you, if you can prove that you had the skills. And at that point, I was actually thinking about going to grad school, like, go get an MBA, and try to get back into the workforce that way, that was the Delta traditional path, I guess most of my colleagues and peers who were in finance who have, you know, gotten a go, they were taking that approach. And once I realize I can, you know, go get a decent paying job without having to, you know, get like $20,000 in debt, and lose two years. It's like, go back to school, and not even like, instead of like, you know, the year that you lose, where you have, like, apply, take your GMAT series, that kind of thing. It was like a no brainer, okay, well, I'm like, are you studying for, you know, like graduate school now, so standardized tests to get in but now I can, like, take my same study plan for the GMAT and apply it to like, you know, at that point was Python I was picking up and potentially go out and build a portfolio and get a job.

Jamal O'Garra 4:58
It was like, you know, It was a no brainer. At that point, I can either spend two and a half to three years and, you know, get into a quarter million dollars of debt, or spend a couple of months and potentially get back to working especially when New York was where I'm based out of a startup scene was like really, really big. And really, I guess it was really vibrant. At that point. I think New York was was a second fastest growing tech market at that point in time there, there are plenty of jobs. Everything was right here in my backyard. So like, you didn't really have to, like, tell me what to do was like, it's a matter of like, it's right there in your face. Go for it, do it jobs. It's just me. It just made so much more sense from an economic standpoint.

Laurence Bradford 5:39
Yeah, hundred percent that is again, I was in a very similar situation. I was thinking and going to grad school and I was studying for the GRP and then it just kind of clicked one day I get there multiple forces at play, but I saw the light and I was like, Wait a second. Why am I studying for standardized tests, right could be learning like actual skills I could get paid for within a pretty short time, a few months, I don't have to go back to school don't have to be back in debt. So yeah, hundred percent. Totally, totally with you on that. So when you first started learning, and you said you were with your wife, what were some ways that you learned or like, what were some resources that you turn to?

Jamal O'Garra 6:14
Yeah, there were there were many, many resources. So for anyone who's looking to learn how to code, learn how to program, there's, there's no shortage of resources out there. The issue that we ran into, was that there were too many resources that we had no idea where to start. When I first started, I guess actually the first place I looked, I think I like actually went and bought like a book on C++ or something like that. Okay, Amazon, because I just noticed that coding is a thing I knew, like C++ was a language that was popular, the C++ or Java, I got a C++ book, that didn't really go too well. And I kind of just started looking online to see what options are out there. And I came across Code Academy. So Code Academy was like my first like, real deal. You know, like, I'm going to sit down and learn how to code learn how to program so they had this Python trick That was pretty, pretty straightforward. And I think I went through that entire track in like a week. Like I sat down and I wasn't working, I wasn't working my full time job was like, you know, trying to get a new full time jobs like learning pickup skills. codeacademy had this Python course, like across the course, like, in my mind, I cross the course from doing a week, if I was going to go out and get a job. You know, I listed all my Code Academy badges on my resume and went out, you know, I think I went to like, I think uncute I think was like, in the city. At that point, I was on my resume.

Jamal O'Garra 7:29
And my Code Academy badges have moved on to HTML, CSS, and you know, pretty much got shut down by everybody. But people are like, Oh, how long have you been coding for a goal a whole entire week I finished this whole Code Academy track. I have all these badges. I know, some HTML and CSS and you know, most people weren't really, you know, you know, really jumping to give me a job, right? It is a good thing. And I've definitely was, you know, very, I guess, like overly ambitious to kind of go out after like a week or two of like learning is trying to get a job but that's kind of just me, right. I'm just like, I'm more of a go getter. So I figured, you know, it's a numbers game, someone's gonna give me a shot. Unfortunately, that day, no one did give me a shot. But what I did do was actually makes contact. So I was able to meet folks and keep in touch with people. So that kind of like built my portfolio, learn more and more things, you know, went through more codeacademy lessons, got more badges, but Code Academy was was like I would say, like the, like my entryway into learning. And then as I kind of learned more about the different jobs that were available, the different technologies that were out there, I came across Ruby on Rails, and when the rails was like, the hot technology, it was like the hot thing. So I actually found micro hurdles, Ruby on Rails tutorials, I went through that. There's a guy by the name of Chris Pine had a pretty good book, I think it was called, how to program it was all in Ruby. So I went through the how to program book first because most people were saying you should know Ruby before going into rails. At that point didn't really, I didn't get it. But it makes sense to me now, but I just know. We're going Do Stack Overflow and I guess Quora posts. You know, I just took the advice that the community had and took it took my time, learn Ruby, learn the basics of programming.

Jamal O'Garra 9:09
And it was kind of more of a refresher for me, because I hadn't learned Python, and took a stab at Stranglers from JavaScript. So I was up my face at this point, my third language. So Ruby, kind of a little bit more sense was easy, easier for me to pick up. And then when I went into rails, I felt really comfortable. And the Michael hartel book was really, really good. Because you kind of build like a Twitter like application from beginning to end. And then after that, I went through this video series that I that a guy named Ryan bass has, or had called rails cast to kind of like fill in the blanks. So I guess like my learning went from going through Code Academy, trying to get a job failing. And then like learning within the hot technology stack was at that point was rails. took my time learn Ruby, learn programming, they project Euler problems, like all that kind of cool stuff to know quote unquote, prepare myself, and then jumped into rails. And from there, I just started like building applications. And once I was able to actually build apps, I learned about more about the command line learned about Heroku. Deploying applications. But I went deeper into the HTML, CSS downstream applications a little more interactive, look nicer. And then eventually somebody gave me gave me a job and then that's how I got my foot in the door.

Laurence Bradford 10:23
Yeah. I was I had myself muted, but I was laughing when you're talking about how you did the one Python track and then you just started looking for a job, but after -

Jamal O'Garra 10:34
Oh man, look at Cody's genius.

Laurence Bradford 10:36
I feel like that's something so many people have to go through like in one way or another where they they make it through like a tutorial or a book or a project and they feel super confident, but then like they hit some other obstacle and they're like, wait, I literally know nothing like you don't even know what you don't know right when you're first starting out because there's just so much to know. But again, I feel like this confidence that you had is very admirable and very unique at the same time, because I Don't know I usually hear the opposite of people that have been learning for like two years and still don't feel like they're ready for a job. So I think in exactly as you said, like the numbers game like I even even though maybe you were a little too early, like that's definitely true though it is. It is a numbers game. If you know what you're doing. You're good at networking on stuff eventually someone's going to like, you know, take a chance on you.

Jamal O'Garra 11:21
Yeah, exactly.

Laurence Bradford 11:22
Yeah.

Jamal O'Garra 11:22
You just one shot.

Laurence Bradford 11:24
Yes. Precisely. So, okay, awesome. And so Okay, so looking at I've been looking at your LinkedIn and seeing how you know, of course you got you ended up getting a job as a web developer. And then I see that you worked at General Assembly. So you were in a structure a general assembly, it looks like how did that end up? Like, how'd you get into teaching people?

Jamal O'Garra 11:46
Yes, I guess how I got into teaching was through, I guess a through the code or meetup that uh, my wife Felicia and I run together. So it started out as a study group. So we're kinda like meet at the library, many coffee shops and like try to find we're trying The goal was to find like minded people to like, study with us and learn. But it really turned out to the point where I guess like, we were learning for about like six months at that point, we had people who were like ground zero. So we actually started randomly teaching classes and workshops were like more like informal. Okay, everyone's kind of stuff gone. I don't know how to write a for loop, or what does an object what is an instance versus like a static method or something like that. So we'll kind of like, grab a room. At this point. We're like, actually, we don't need a space at a co working space to work out of kind of like tasty little review sessions and those kinds of studies he was mentioning, there's two classes. So from there, I guess I kind of was I kind of got somewhat known in the New York scene as far as a teaching just through like through the meetup. And then I got connected with like, folks at General Assembly I did some teaching astroturf Institute. I did some teaching for the city of Newark, so I guess they just from running the workshops. Through the coke remita which eventually turn into like little classes. The word kind of got out to those that I taught. And people came. I just came after me.

Laurence Bradford 13:09
Yeah, yeah, no, got it. Okay. I guess I was under the impression for some reason that you were doing the General Assembly teaching before the code crew meet up. And yeah, so for the listeners, I mean, you could explain it better than I can. But you started this group and you guys do workshops, and you still do workshops to this day, correct?

Jamal O'Garra 13:28
That's correct. Yes.

Laurence Bradford 13:30
Yeah. So okay, that's, that's really awesome. You start it with your wife, as you mentioned, which is also really cool. And you guys are still running it together. And it's just a New York, right?

Jamal O'Garra 13:40
Yeah. Just in New York, just in New York.

Laurence Bradford 13:42
Okay, cool. So get through there. You met all these other contacts at a startup Institute, General Assembly, and then you began teaching in other places. So yeah, that's really that's really awesome. Like, over time, how has your tech journey evolves? It sounds like you start off learning, you know? Well, I guess technically you got a C++ book at first, and then you went to Python and Ruby on Rails like, and then in the beginning, you mentioned, you're doing a lot of like Node and more front end JavaScript stuff today. So like, how is that evolved over time?

Jamal O'Garra 14:12
Yeah, sure. So I guess when I first started, I was doing a Ruby during my first job was a real job. And then my second job was actually a Python job. I was actually a Django developer. And most of the folks that I work with, I guess they were, everyone was, I guess, quote, unquote, full stack, but no one really wanted to touch the front end. So I was the most junior person. So I kind of got stuck with all the front end stuff. And then at that point, I really hated JavaScript. I didn't understand it very confusing for me. But I just kind of like was forced into like learning it. And then once I kind of picked it up and got good at it, opportunities were there. And I noticed that again, there's more like seeing what the trends were, with opportunities were.

Jamal O'Garra 14:51
And it seemed that JavaScript was really, really hot. No, it was no was the thing at that time. I'd actually met Ryan Dahl at when I was teaching ga He can't even talk on node. And I was like really, like really interested in really impressed by his presentation and what node was capable of. And in fact, you could actually do JavaScript on the server. I like the fact that it was like, it was all real time asynchronous and like super fast, like, at that point, no was kind of like, you know, one of the one of the fastest, I guess, like platforms, you could use to write servers, like, like I said, like it was way faster than Ruby or Python at that point. And I was like, Okay, I spent the time learning JavaScript, I know it really well, not just on the server. So at that point, I kind of just like, made the commitment to go deeper into node and go deeper into JavaScript and make that a specialty. And went out and started doing mostly front end JavaScript roles as a consultant. And then, you know, getting the chance to do some good but decent round, no development. So now I consult but I specialized in Node and JavaScript. For the most part.

Laurence Bradford 15:52
Yeah, got it. So today in like mid 2017, what do you tell beginners to learn when they ask you?

Jamal O'Garra 16:00
Yeah, I guess it varies when it depends, right? First, I find out what like what is what is your goal? If your goal is to build mobile applications, I'm not going to tell you to learn, you know, Python, so this area, right? So you may well just learn like, you know, swift or no learn Java, if you're gonna do like, you know, iOS development or Android development. Or I would say, actually, when it comes down to it, long story short, right, start rambling. I always tell people to learn JavaScript, right? Because I would say that's probably the easiest language to learn. It's also probably the hardest time just to learn, but it's easy to get started.

Jamal O'Garra 16:37
And you can get immediate results because you can kind of see what you get. And then once you learn the language, you get your client side language and your server side language for free if you decide to go the nose as rough, but I kind of tell people that I feel like if they want to do web and potentially mobile, because you have things like React Native is ionic is out there because all these different like, you know JavaScript based platforms that To help you build like hybrid and mobile applications, so I would say JavaScript is probably nine times out of 10. What I tell people to go for, unless they're really laser focus, they say I want to do machine learning is like maybe Python is probably good for you. Or I want to like, you know, write servers, then maybe I'll just say maybe, you know, Ruby is probably good because Rails is no easy to kind of get up and running with. So it really depends on the person. But if they're like, generally just trying to get into coding and programming, I probably would just recommend JavaScript is a good place to start.

Laurence Bradford 17:30
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Laurence Bradford 19:44
Yeah, awesome. That's really, really great advice. And as you already mentioned, JavaScript has tons of use cases and it can be used in a lot of different ways. So yeah, totally, totally agree. I think that's great advice. But then so of course, like there's like the language that someone should learn but then what about Where people should start. So like if resources to turn to of course, you have like code crew. And that's like an in person meetup here in New York. But what about for people who maybe aren't based in New York or even a city with a lot of like, in person options and classes they can take?

Jamal O'Garra 20:14
Yes. As far as like, I guess, I guess the incentives your best is your best friend at that point. I would say, there are definitely people on Twitter that you will probably want to follow as far as like a, you know, folks like yourself. There's tons of people out there who like are really good at gathering resources and like, assembling like, I would say, I don't want to say curriculum, but I guess like a basic study plan that you can kind of work through, I would say, definitely follow the Twitter accounts of the technologies that you're interested in. So instead of like, you know, Python, follow the Fisher like Python, Twitter or like, the node Twitter things like node and JavaScript, that kind of thing. I would say that it's kind of tough because like I said, the domain issue is that there's so many resources out there, it's really easy to get overwhelmed. It's really easy to find to use a wrench resources that may not be as, as useful. So I would normally like do I would direct someone to, you know, like to like your site thanks to to to your to your blog, I would direct folks to probably like, you know, follow you on Twitter, you know, look at look at a, like ga lead gen somebody has a pretty good blog that like, you know, provides some information about how to get started recoding there's tons of like, does a I think it's like a learn to code subreddit I think I came across when I was first starting this that's really like really useful to get into I think really is about just going into web finding and finding what's what's really out there. dislike also is also like a really awesome my paid platforms like just like this this treehouse, that's really good for beginners. They have like, you know, like a full curriculum where they you know, you can pay them like X amount of dollars per month and you can learn there's tons of really, really good courses on Coursera Udemy has some some pretty decent stuff Udacity is really nice. It really depends on what the person's learning style is for a person like myself, like I went all through college and like, you know, I wasn't a big fan of classes I really wanted to like I really enjoyed teaching myself things.

Jamal O'Garra 22:18
So if I so for me, that sounds like a Udacity would be really awesome because you can watch a video and then like actually start working on solving a problem to learn. So if your style is more like you want a more of a classroom setting, which you're more of a self directed learner, maybe something like a Coursera course or Udacity is good. If you like to read through books, then, you know, like there's like JavaScript is the elephant JavaScript book. There's there's a Ruby on Rails tutorial for real stuff. And I guess if you're just a more of a person who wants to like, stay up on what the different resources or you want to curate your own list of things, I think red is probably a good place to go. I was Comments using Reddit and Twitter, and maybe even core as well, because those are all community generated resources that get like uploaded to the top. So based on what you want to do, you can kind of, you know, see what other people who've come before you have done and like put together to like, piece together your study plan, if you want to get into like coding or learning in this day and age. Like I said, there's just tons of resources out there. I'm probably like forgetting, you know, a ton of them.

Laurence Bradford 23:27
No, no, I mean, you're I mean, no, but I mean, exactly. To me, I see so many people, and I was one of these people, when they first started out, feel totally overwhelmed. And even when I started learning, there was a lot less resources out there than there are now or I remember like, Udacity was such a different platform. I remember taking a course and it was like, it's completely evolved like since I think they'll even have like two or three courses when I first started taking them there. But in any case, yeah, no, but you mentioned a lot of awesome resources that people can look into and totally agree just depends on someone's learning styles and of course, their end goals as well. Which country have mentioned earlier but, you know, if a person wants to do something with like data science or machine learning, would it make sense for them to learn JavaScript on and likewise with? You know, a few, a few other things out there? So, yeah, no, that's all it's all really good stuff. I'm kind of switching gears a little bit. it you know, you're really active in the tech community here in New York. And of course, you are self taught. he transitioned from finance, what role has like these in person communities and networking and all that stuff? Like what has what role has that played in your career advancement?

Jamal O'Garra 24:34
Very important role, because I attend meetups tech events, conferences, you name it as frequently as I can, because it's good for networking. It's good to meet other developers is good to be hiring managers just it's always good to have when you have a career in the field. It's always good to be on the scene and just network to meet as many people as you can, and go into hackathons. Going to meetups, going to tech conferences. has really helped me but it helped me get jobs, it helped me, uh, you know, just have a network of really strong developers that I can reach out to for, like advice and guidance. So I would say that the in person aspect of like technology and a community is like, has been probably the number one key to my success, right.

Jamal O'Garra 25:19
So even things like going to the career fair that I first went to, when I got shut down for a job doing that same fear came back around, you know, a couple of months later, you know, I was able to kind of go there, like, see the same people will show my progress and really show when I was serious, and those folks have become, you know, friends and mentors and maybe potential clients of mine or employer later on down the line. So I would say if you're trying to get into tech, you have to get out of your apartment, your house, your dorm room, if you're in college, or wherever and like really go out there. You want to scene, meet people talk to them, because that's the only way you're going to really get a job or even just like stay up to date on the latest technologies just being out being a living Breathing, person interacting with other people, right? You write code for machines, but you have to get out there and mingle and mix around.

Laurence Bradford 26:08
Yeah, yeah. And I'm curious. I know today you're doing consulting, but you did have some full time jobs in the past. And of course, today you you have, you know, clients and whatnot. I'm Hazara ever been a job that you actually applied to? Or are these all every kind of job and client that you've gotten? Has it been through your network?

Jamal O'Garra 26:28
I would say it's definitely been to my network. Um, I would say the last couple of jobs and full time like a full time roles and consultant roles have come through word of mouth. Or there's someone introduced me to like a co founder who was starting a startup and we needed a lead developer to help get their product off the ground. Or, you know, even like, like some of the clients that I have now were actually from people that I work with in finance, they found that I was doing coding and programming. And, you know, they knew someone who worked at a bank or some financial institution, and Did a developer that knew, you know, particular technology and I was able to, you know, to get interviewed, based off of a very warm introduction. Um, so I would say like, for me personally, most of the opportunities that I get come from, excuse me, come from, you know, my personal network.

Laurence Bradford 27:21
Yeah. 1000 person. I mean, I feel like most, I mean, yeah, yeah, totally. Like, I feel like most opportunities I've have come across in one way or another have somehow tied back into someone, I, someone I know, maybe someone I met a few years ago and it You never know, like, you could lead to an introduction to someone else. The next thing you know, you're working for that company or that company or client and whatnot. One thing that I think is really cool, though, a little bit of a side note is, you mentioned like, of course, used to work in finance. And now a lot of your consulting clients are in FinTech or are in finance in some way. And I think that's really awesome how you kind of like combined like both backgrounds. So it's like you have like A strong understanding of the financial industry and of course technology to and then you kind of like mesh it together to work with those clients.

Jamal O'Garra 28:07
Yeah, definitely. That's definitely the way I look at it is that the world that we live in now, every industry relies on technology. So like, Okay, I'm a developer. You know, my goal is right, my job is to write software. But that software has to be written in some industry. So and I learned this when I first got into into tech those in the startup world is that you have like you said, You have FinTech, you have like fashion tech, you have ad tech. Like is technology being applied to the different industries and the same thing was true for for finance for FinTech, with the startups or for enterprise. For enterprise, enterprise companies. They all need technology. So if you have a particular I guess, like a particular skill set or or expertise in some industry, and you have the technology so you know both the business and you understand the technology behind it, it puts you in a unique position and for me, that's what we're finding so much. Finance was for me, like I worked in finance for almost like, six, seven years I was away for a year, picked up coding and programming and the fact that I really had that rich business knowledge and experience, like a couple of with the programming really made me Excel within the financial services room when it came when it comes to being a software engineer.

Laurence Bradford 29:21
Yeah, yeah, no, it definitely totally makes sense. Um, and just like real quick, how are the clients that you work with? Today? Are they, how long are the projects? Usually? Is that usually pretty pretty long term?

Jamal O'Garra 29:33
It depends. I would say mostly, I'll say about a year to 18 months roughly. Depends on how they run, they run longer. But it really depends on the nature of the project. But the problems I've had have mostly been about a year to about a year and a half on average.

Laurence Bradford 29:46
Okay, cool. Yeah, that Yeah, that makes sense as well. Because they're, it's like more established companies or more established startups generally, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Nice. Nice. So where do you see Going with yourself in the future like, are you going to continue consulting? Are you going to be teaching any more workshops or growing code crew in any way?

Jamal O'Garra 30:07
Yeah, the future really depends. I mean, I definitely will continue to see like, it's like a passion of mine. So I love to do it. I think it helps me stay up to date with the latest technologies helps me practice my public speaking. That's something I definitely will be doing workshops. We have a couple of workshops that we've had over the last couple of weeks. There's definitely some more coming down the pipeline over those couple of months or so as far as a co crew Yeah, I think we I think we were see coconut just just from like, working like being a developer this very little time that you have, especially like if you're in like a like finance No, you tend to work a little less I guess slightly longer hours. So I'm co crew is more like a way for I guess like for myself and my wife Felicia to get Back to the community, we we've been in most people's shoes like most folks, we're learning to code and program now we know how it is and how overwhelming it is to find good resources to go out and find a job. So we just try to make ourselves as available as possible to people in the community who are like trying to learn trying to make this a career.

Jamal O'Garra 31:19
So we do that by giving our classes, our workshops, and some of the army firms that we have. So cofra will continue to definitely be something that's very important to the two of us, and we will continue to like, you know, continue to give workshops, and I guess as far as growing it, you know, we just let it grow organically, right. kofu started as a meetup. When we first launched, we had like, 10 people and we're meeting at a coffee shop. And then now we're like, over 10,000 people, you know, so as it continues to grow, we just let it grow organically, but it's really a vehicle for us to give back to the community that helped us change our lives has given us so much so we want to, you know, help reciprocate that and give back and, you know, just try to help others. People who are going down the same path that we went on a couple years ago.

Laurence Bradford 32:03
Yeah, definitely. That's really that's really awesome. And I love how you kind of like view it as as that and yeah, as a way to give back and I think it Yeah, no, that's like that's super awesome. So yeah, thank you so much, Jamal, for coming on the show and where can people find you online?

Jamal O'Garra 32:19
Thanks for having me. Um, you can find me online pretty much anywhere on any social media platform. Under my handle, jsogarro. That's first initials, middle initial, last name. So, J-S-O-G-A-R-R-O. Follow me on Twitter, follow me on Instagram, Medium, GitHub, LinkedIn. That's my handle for every social media platform you can think of in the world. So that's how you can get in touch with me.

Laurence Bradford 32:45
Awesome. I'm super jealous that you have it for every. Alright, well have a good one. Thank you again for coming on.

Jamal O'Garra 32:52
Yeah. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Laurence Bradford 33:00
I hope you enjoyed our conversation. Again, the Show Notes for this episode can be found at learntocode with.me/podcast. If you're listening to this episode in the future, simply click the search icon in the upper navigation and type in Jamal's name. It's spelled like J-A-M-A-L. Also, head on over to my website, learntocodewith.me. Regardless, where you can find even more awesome code related content, like my 10 Free Tips for Teaching Yourself How to Code. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next week.