In today’s episode of the Learn to Code With Me podcast, I talk with Debbie Milburn. Debbie is a former classical violinist who left music school to seek a career in tech. She is a graduate of Dev Bootcamp and currently works for DBC as an apprentice instructor.
Debbie’s journey from musician to bootcamp instructor began when she decided that a performance career was not for her. She started by teaching herself how to code using online resources. She eventually chose to seek a more structured learning environment, which brought her to Dev Bootcamp. She describes why she chose DBC and how she transitioned from student to apprentice.
In our conversation, Debbie talks about seeking new opportunities and cautions against letting fear get in the way. She gives advice about problem solving, building projects, and teamwork. Debbie also stresses the importance of meeting people in tech and finding a learning environment that works best for you.
Laurence:
Hey, it's Laurence Bradford. Welcome to Season 2 of the Learn to Code With Me podcast, where I'm chatting with people who taught themselves how to code and are now doing amazing things with their newly found skills.
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Hey listeners, welcome to the Learn to Code With Me podcast. I'm your host, Laurence Bradford. In today's episode, I talk with Debbie Milburn. After pursuing a Bachelor of Music in Violin Performance, Debbie soon realized that a performance career was not for her. She decided to learn to code, and ultimately attended Dev Bootcamp. This decision ended up changing her life, for the better of course.
Today, Debbie is an instructor apprentice at Dev Bootcamp NYC. In our conversation, we talk about her decision to go to Dev Bootcamp, what the coding experience was like, and what it's like being an instructor apprentice there now. If you're thinking about going to a coding bootcamp, this episode is for you. Remember, you can get Show Notes for this conversation, plus a full transcript, at learntocodewith.me/podcast. Enjoy!
Hey Debbie, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Debbie:
Thank you for having me.
Laurence:
So real quick, could you introduce yourself to the audience?
Debbie:
Sure. So I am a previous classical violinist, and now I am an apprentice instructor at Dev Bootcamp
Laurence:
That's awesome. There's so many questions I want to ask you, but first, I just want to point out that I think you're one of several guests that have been on this show that has a background in music in some way.
Debbie:
Yeah. Music and coding are very similar.
Laurence:
Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm actually not a musical person at all, but I have friends and people in my family who are and are very good at tech, so I definitely want to jump into that for a bit. Kind of going back in time, how did you get into music initially, and then what was the transition into tech?
Debbie:
Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm actually not a musical person at all, but I have friends and people in my family who are and are very good at tech, so I definitely want to jump into that for a bit. Kind of going back in time, how did you get into music initially, and then what was the transition into tech?
Laurence:
So you were in high school and then studied it in college as well.
Debbie:
Yes, I went to the Cleveland Institute of Music for college.
Laurence:
Okay, cool. How many years, I'm just curious, after that, was it until you discovered coding?
Debbie:
It was only about a year, year and a half.
Laurence:
Okay, so pretty soon after school?
Debbie:
Yeah.
Laurence:
Alright, nice. We actually have a somewhat similar story except I wasn't pursuing music. I moved to Thailand after college for about a year and then upon realization that my career options were bleak and I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, I ended up kind of falling into technology and teaching myself how to code.
Debbie:
That's so great.
Laurence:
Yeah. So when you first began learning, how did you go about that?
Debbie:
The first thing I did was I googled 'beginner coding.' I didn't really know what I was looking for so I ended up using a resource called Turtle Graphics, which was meant for children. I didn't realize that at the time but it was about having a turtle move across the screen in different ways and I thought it was entertaining, even though it wasn't anything too rough. After that, I realized it was something I wanted to pursue more. I ended up taking one semester of an Introduction to Python course, and that's when I realized that I should go more in depth and I ended up finding Dev Bootcamp.
Laurence:
I feel like I almost jumped the gun a bit because I actually, I should have asked this first, not how you started learning. What made you realize that coding was an option, or technology was an option for you?
Debbie:
Sure. A friend of mine from music school ended up leaving school and started a computer science degree and was talking about it. It kind of was in my periphery for a little bit. Then I started to really think about what I wanted my next step to be, because I knew that the reason I left music was because I wanted a career that just fit my needs better. I started thinking about everything that I really enjoy and I love solving problems and I love logic. I realized that coding did that much better.
Laurence:
Yeah, definitely. I think, for me personally, I never had, I love to solve problems and I love organization and things like that, but it was just not a natural fit for me. I never thought I could really do coding or have a tech job. Yeah, it's so interesting to hear how people fall into it sometimes. It seems like a very logical next step. There's people I talk to who always tinkered with electronics or something growing up. I was never that person, though.
Debbie:
Yeah, I wasn't either. I did a little bit of styling on my Xanga blog back in the day, but besides that I didn't have any experience with it until a couple years ago.
Laurence:
Yeah, I wasn't either. I did a little bit of styling on my Xanga blog back in the day, but besides that I didn't have any experience with it until a couple years ago.
Debbie:
Yeah, it was much more about finding something that I wanted to do everyday.
Laurence:
Cool. So you start learning how to code, you take an Intro to Python course, you enjoy it. You then decide to go to Dev Bootcamp. What made you choose Dev Bootcamp?
Debbie:
I think there were two main things that drew me. One thing that they spoke a lot about on their website was that it wasn't just about learning to code, it was about learning how to code the right way. I had been solving things on my own and it felt like I just needed a little bit more of a framework about how to go forward. So that was part of it. The other big thing that drew me was Dev Bootcamp's Engineering Empathy program.
Laurence:
What's that? I'm not familiar with that.
Debbie:
That program is a series of classes that are about developing your soft skills. One thing that I've heard a lot of people say is that often teams don't fail because of their technical knowledge, it's about the interpersonal things and everything that's involved with people working together. So Engineering Empathy is about teaching people to work together in a bunch of different ways. There's a class on microaggressions, there's a class on your inner critic, there's a class about team dynamics and how different people can work together.
Laurence:
That's fascinating, I did not know that Dev Bootcamp offered Engineering Empathy courses. Is that required for everyone going through the bootcamp or is that an optional add on?
Debbie:
No, it's required.
Laurence:
Alright, nice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dev Bootcamp has several locations across the country, right?
Debbie:
Yes we do. I think it's five now.
Laurence:
Nice. Which one did you attend?
Debbie:
I went to the one in New York City.
Laurence:
And that's where you still live and work today?
Debbie:
Yes.
Laurence:
Okay, nice. Could you tell me how you, I know you're a mentor now, or you're one of the teaching assistants, right?
Debbie:
Yeah. They started a new program called the apprentice instructors. I was a mentor at DBC, which, mentoring at DBC is a program they started where alumni can come back and work part time and be the first wave when students are working through problems during the day, in case anyone gets stuck. They started a new program for two mentors to take the next step. Now I'm full time both teaching and working with the in house engineering department.
Laurence:
Nice. What does your day to day look like now, being in the apprenticeship?
Debbie:
Three days a week I am teaching, sometimes it means lectures, sometimes it means doing one on one code reviews, sometimes it means coming up with good solutions for some type of challenge that students should do next to learn something. The days that I'm engineering, I'm currently working on an application called Employ, which is for alumni after they graduate. It's a way to connect with potential employers.
Laurence:
So three days a week teaching and then the other two days you do engineering.
Debbie:
Correct.
Laurence:
And you're working on an app called Employ for alumnis to connect with employers.
Debbie:
Yes.
Laurence:
You spend a lot of time teaching. Was that something you were always interested in?
Debbie:
No, not necessarily. I did some teaching as a violinist. But really my first big experience teaching was as a mentor at DBC. I really fell in love with it. I really enjoy supporting people and it feels like an extension of that.
Laurence:
Is the apprenticeship program you're in, is that for a limited time or is it, is there a difference between an apprentice instructor or a full time instructor?
Debbie:
Sure. There are a couple of differences. It is a limited time program. It's for six to nine months. The hope is to have DBC students ramp up quickly to the level of an instructor at DBC who wasn't a student. Also, teachers don't generally work with the engineering department quite as much as I do.
Laurence:
Nice. That's interesting. I fell into education as well. I actually was teaching in Thailand, which I didn't enjoy too much. Now I work at an ed tech startup so I still do a lot of stuff with educating users and helping users take advantage of our platform and use technology and use it to the best of their advantage. It's definitely in that realm, but that was never something I saw myself doing.
Debbie:
Interesting. How does it feel different from what you were doing in Thailand?
Laurence:
In Thailand I was, first of all I was working at a preschool, essentially. I would teach about 200 different kids. I'd go from classroom to classroom to classroom. Their ages ranged from, the youngest were a year old, essentially a day care. The oldest I taught were about seven years old. I think working with that age group has its own set of challenges that was definitely different from some of my other friends there who were working with high school students. At the same time, it taught me a lot about kids and being around kids. That was the first time I was ever around that many children that were that young. I really got to learn their temperaments and what not. To me, standing in front of a classroom all day is very draining. It's very tiring. I could see myself maybe doing it again, just teaching something different, not English. Definitely for less hours a day.
Debbie:
That sounds like it would be a good compromise.
Laurence:
Yes. I think a lot of people who teach English overseas do it for, I definitely had friends over there who still are teaching. They are educators in public school systems here in the US, but there's also definitely a very solid group of people who go, more so for the experience and to travel and what not.
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So aside from working at Dev Bootcamp, is there anything else you do in your freetime or any projects you're involved with?
Debbie:
I have an app that's still in the beginning stages. There's a class that I took at the Cleveland Institute of Music called Eurythmics, which is about learning to feel rhythm through bodily motion, so it's an app to help facilitate that.
Laurence:
That's really interesting. How does that work? I've never heard of that before.
Debbie:
Eurythmics?
Laurence:
Yeah.
Debbie:
The first class that I walked into freshman year, the instructor was like, "Okay, so I'm going to put on a metronome, just clap to the beat." He turned on the metronome and it beeped the first time and everyone clapped a little delayed and we were waiting for the next one and there was no sound. We were kind of looking around and waiting like, "Did he make a mistake?" And then it made a beep 30 seconds later, so we had to learn to clap every 30 seconds. So it was about being able to feel, internally, what was going on and time passing, without anything external.
Laurence:
The app that you're building around that, what does it do exactly? How does it work?
Debbie:
It would be a training app. There are a bunch of different things you do in eurythmics. The instructor will impromise melodies with different rhythms and you need to learn to step to them so the app will impromise melodies and rhythms for you so that you can practice that on your own.
Laurence:
Where does the app live right now? You said it's not live yet?
Debbie:
It's not live yet. It's most definitely in the beginning stages.
Laurence:
It's not live yet. It's most definitely in the beginning stages.
Debbie:
No, I'm building it in Python with Flask.
Laurence:
Okay, cool, that's cool. I've been peering at your LinkedIn and seeing some stuff. I see Ruby on Rails. That's really neat. As far as your own learning goes, what role has building your own projects played?
Debbie:
It's been a really important part of my learning. I feel like there's no way to know how to break down a really big problem and have a feeling for how long something will take without just throwing yourself into it and making predictions and seeing how you're wrong and learning from that.
Laurence:
Yeah, I always tell people that building their own projects, I think that's one of the best ways to learn and also can be something you can add to your resume or portfolio. Either way, you learn by the end. Even if you're building an app and it never goes live and people never get to use it, still through that process you're learning a ton.
Debbie:
Yeah, absolutely.
Laurence:
I can say, for myself at least, personal projects have ended up bringing much more than I thought they would. Once I put a lot of time and effort into them, it definitely takes patience to build things and to have it grow over time. I think the long run benefits can be really massive. So, I'm curious, when you first started learning, you started off, what languages did you learn exactly?
Debbie:
I first started with the introduction to python course, then Dev Bootcamp was Ruby, primarily, also JavaScript.
Laurence:
Nice. So which do you like more then? Ruby on Rails or Python and Flask or Python and Django or something?
Debbie:
Probably Ruby. I really enjoy how clean it is to just write and read it. It feels really clear. I think that's a useful aspect of it.
Laurence:
Then I have to ask, why are you building the app in Python and Flask?
Debbie:
There's this library called Music 21. I think it's from MIT, that just does a lot of really helpful things having to do with music. Creating a music app, it made sense to use that.
Laurence:
Okay, that makes sense. I was wondering. I was like, "That's interesting." For other people just starting out, and maybe they're thinking about going to a coding bootcamp and they're not sure if they should go or not, do you have any advice you could share for someone trying to make that decision?
Debbie:
I would say that just because you're scared, doesn't mean that it's the wrong decision. It's really scary making big life changes and that usually means that you care, if you're feeling scared.
Laurence:
That's really good, that's really interesting advice. I have to ask now, were you nervous before you went to Dev Bootcamp?
Debbie:
Absolutely. It was a huge life change and something that, it's hard to do something when you don't know whether or not it will work out, or whether or not you will like it. Just going all in and trying it was one of the best decisions I ever made.
Laurence:
Yeah, I can imagine. Especially since you've been working there, or doing some kind of involvement, mentoring or being an apprentice, since. Definitely played a huge part in your life it seems. Aside from advice to people that are maybe stuck on deciding if a coding bootcamp is right for them or not. Is there any other advice you could give to someone, just kind of generally, who's teaching themselves how to code?
Debbie:
If you're having a lot of trouble solving a problem, take a step back and figure out how it can be smaller problems.
Laurence:
Yeah, that's very simple and to the point. That's good. Figuring out how to break it down to smaller pieces. As far as the future goes, where do you see yourself, what do you see yourself doing next when the apprenticeship is done?
Debbie:
When it's done, I may become a full time instructor there. Otherwise, I'm not quite sure what the next step is, to be honest. I definitely want to keep coding though.
Laurence:
Yeah, I wanted to ask that, I kind of forgot that the next thing after that would be to become a full time instructor. Which I'm sure will work out. From what I've heard you're doing a fantastic job at Dev Bootcamp. Again, just curious, let's just say it didn't work out, do you think you would still help others by teaching?
Debbie:
Oh yes, definitely. I feel like that's also just part of being a programmer, is helping others. Being on a team, it's always helpful to have another set of eyes and you always come to an experience with past knowledge that other people don't have. I'm definitely looking forward to sharing what I know wherever I go.
Laurence:
Yeah, that's awesome. That's so great. I feel like at Dev Bootcamp, I'm kind of jumping around here a bit, but you talked about the team and what not. I've spoken with others who have gone there or who work there or what not, and it seems like you guys have a really strong sense of community.
Debbie:
Yes, absolutely.
Laurence:
Between other alumni there and current students and so on, right? What role has that played over the last two years since you've been there?
Debbie:
I feel like one of the main things that I felt when I first walked into DBC, actually I'm going to back up a second. Whenever you introduce yourself at DBC, you say your name and where you're from, and then you have to say a quirk about yourself. It's so great to be in a place that accepts and encourages people to actually be who they are. I really enjoy walking into Dev Bootcamp because it always feels like I am okay, and I am welcome there. It's really nice to have a home base like that in the tech world.
Laurence:
Yeah, that's so awesome. I know you guys, again Dev Bootcamp has campuses around the US. I'm sure you guys have a lot of events there for people who aren't students as well, right?
Debbie:
Yes, we have lots of events on meetup.com.
Laurence:
Okay, cool. For everyone listening, if you live in one of the cities where Dev Bootcamp is based, and I forget the list right now, but I'm going to say New York, San Francisco, Chicago, and then two others, right?
Debbie:
San Diego and Austin.
Laurence:
San Diego and Austin, okay cool. So if anyone listening is based near those areas, Dev Bootcamp has a lot of meetups that you can check out.
Debbie:
Yeah, we have them pretty much every week. Things from open source talks to Ruby for beginners. We have lots of programs.
Laurence:
Cool. So I have one final, kind of, I like to call it my scenario question. If there's a person who has no technical experience whatsoever, but wants a job in tech, or they want to transition into tech, what can they do today to take a step in the right direction?
Debbie:
I would say, attend a meetup. Meet the people who are in tech. Find out what it's like to be in that community and see if it feels like the right fit.
Laurence:
Awesome answer. Finally Debbie, where can people find you online?
Debbie:
I am on LinkedIn, my name is Debbie Milburn.
Laurence:
Awesome. Thank you so much Debbie for talking.
Debbie:
Thank you for having me.
Laurence:
I hope you enjoyed our conversation. Again, the Show Notes for this episode, plus a full transcript, can be found at learntocodewith.me/podcast. If you're listening to this episode in the future, simply click the search icon in the upper navigation and type in the name Debbie Milburn. If you enjoyed this episode, head on over to my website, learntocodewith.me, where you can find even more awesome code related content, like my 10 Free Tips for Teaching Yourself How to Code. Thanks so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.
SPECIAL THANKS TO THIS EPISODE’S SPONSORS
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Key takeaways:
- Bootcamps are a great way to add structure to your learning process. It’s not just about learning to code, it’s about learning to code the right way.
- Learning how to work as part of a team is an important aspect of working in tech. If you don’t know how to work in a group, technical knowledge won’t be enough.
- Building projects will help you learn how to solve problems. It helps you see what you’re doing wrong and see where you still need to learn. Even if your project never goes live, you have something to add to your portfolio.
- Don’t let fear stop you from trying something new in tech. Big life changes can be scary, but fear doesn’t mean you’re going in the wrong direction.
- If you’re having a lot of trouble solving a problem, take a step back and figure out how it can be smaller problems.
- Go to meetups. Meet the people who are in tech. Find out what it’s like to be in that community and see if it feels like the right fit.
Links and mentions from the episode:
- Dev Bootcamp
- Turtle Graphics
- Engineering Empathy
- DBC on meetup.com
- Debbie Milburn on LinkedIn
Thanks for listening!
Thanks so much for tuning in! Remember, you can listen to the Learn to Code With Me podcast on the following platforms:
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Special thanks to this episode’s sponsors
HyperDev: Want to build fullstack web apps for free? Want to write both backend and frontend code and have your apps go live instantly? Head over to the HyperDev developer playground and start building!